Ask Allie
Ask Allie is our fermenting-related advice column, where you can ask all your fermenting, cooking, baking, and pantry-related questions to get digestible answers! No question about food is off limits!
Due to increased submissions during the Covid-19 pandemic, many of you will receive an emailed reply prior to your question hitting the blog if I think you need an immediate answer. I will also, as needed, answer way more questions per post than the non-pandemic 3-4 question columns.
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Are your products certified kosher, if so under what supervision. I’m most interested in sourdough, but may later think about yogurt.
— Sharon
Because our cultures are not produced in a facility that has been kashered or with mandated oversight by a mashgiach, everything we sell is treif. The ingredients we use are by-and-large are kosher, but as you know, ingredients are but one part of the laws of kashrut. All of that said, you can definitely make a sourdough starter of your own, and it would be kosher since your kitchen, I assume, conforms to all relevant halacha. I’m not personally aware of any probiotic companies that do/can sell kosher cultures, but they may well exist. Check with your rabbi to see if he has any ideas on that (your rabbi may already know someone who has starters for what you’re looking for to share, too). What I do know, however, is that you may be able to ask the bakery you go to if they’d give or sell you some starter. Many bakeries do (many bakeries also were willing to sell yeast to customers prior to the pandemic, so I assume that’s ramped up a lot if you need kosher commercial yeast).
If you later do opt for yogurt, I’d pick up a small container of kosher yogurt that has live active cultures, and then use it to start a yogurt of your own. If the kosher yogurt isn’t heritage, you may have some periodic issues with inconsistent culturing. I have a Greek… no, I used to have a non-heritage Greek that was a bit wonky sometimes, but I find that now that it’d been “contaminated” by milk kefir it produces the yogurt it was always meant to, albeit in Frankenyogurt form.
I'm making 8 cups of yogurt, and now I realize I only have about 3 Tbsp of culture for the mesophilic culture I'm using. Is that too little? Should I supplement it with some thermophilic that I have in the fridge already? You say not to use too little culture or it won't set and/or my culture may cease. Yikes. How little is too little? Should I just use what I have and see if it sets?
—Rochelle
If it sets I’ll be shocked, since you’ve only got less than half the culture you need saved to do that much. What makes more sense is to make the first 4 cups first (there should be plenty of wiggle room to ferment the full quart, though 3 cups is the correct answer), then grab a reculture when it’s done and do the other 4 cups. Your thermophilic yogurt would be wasted in this context, since it needs the proteins to be denatured first and then it needs a much warmer temp to ferment than a mesophil does.
On your site, skyr is listed as a mesophilic culture, but online, it's described as a thermophilic culture. Can you tell me what the difference is between the two?
— Janet
We sell both a mesophilic and a thermophilic varieties, which is a little weird since this is normally thermophilic. Although you can still use rennet with either of them, the primary difference is in the temperature the microbes require for fermentation. The mesophil is at room temp, and the thermo requires the milk proteins first be denatured (by heating), then cooled to blood temp (so a warmer incubation temperature than the meso versions). Without rennet in either of them, it won’t be a true skyr, but will still hit all the notes with less work and fewer ingredients.
What makes a bacillus Bulgaria “heritage” (usable over and over again) as opposed to the same bacteria which is present in some commercial yoghurt?
— Joanna
With a heritage yogurt, the yogurt can continue to live on generation after generation because they’re part of the yogurt itself. Added, powdered probiotics tend to lose efficacy very quickly, so you have more consistency from batch to batch on that front when you do it homemade. Some brands of commercial yogurt will reculture (personal experience speaking here), but they often get wonky over the length of its use. Heritage yogurts also tend to not have stabilizers, thickeners, and sugar added.
Can I use Fairlife milk - it is ultra filtered, not ultra pasteurized.
— Joanna
Yes, you can. You can use any milk for any yogurt, cultured milk, or milk kefir.
Howdy! I'm JUST starting my sourdough bread-making journey, but I'm gluten-free. I'm curious...can I use Bob's Red Mill gluten-free flour mix to feed the gluten-free starter? I'm truly a novice...I apologize for asking such a silly question! Thanks in advance! :)
— Becky
Yes, absolutely! It was too much work for me to feed mine with a mix of different flours, so I’ve been using the King Arthur. Whatever C4C blend you like should be fine.
Hi Allie, I hope you are well and had two questions today I was wondering which thermophilic yogurt culture would be most similar to Austrian strains, I'm guessing the European one? And my second question is that I'm looking to make Topfen(Austrian)/Quark(German) which is a fresh farmer's cheese, and I was wondering which mesophilic strain (or other type if you've tried it before) you would suggest for this. I've used cultured buttermilk in the past but the store-bought stuff doesn't give the flavor profile and sourness like what you get in Europe. Thanks for any help you can give. Ohh one last thing, what's the difference between the SF and the SF Fishermans Wharf Sourdough strain? Are there strong flavor differences?
— Travis
Yes to the European, with one caveat: everyone I know who’s Austrian and makes their own yogurt makes Bulgarian. I don’t know a billion people from there or anything, so that may or may not be the right one.
Is the buttermilk you’ve used grocery store buttermilk? If so, the issue is that it’s low-fat. If you’re doing it the German/Austrian way, I’m assuming this is happening in your oven (I’ve not made quark, but I make other cheeses and have a preference for farmer’s cheeses in sum). My understanding is that low-fat buttermilk is fail on this front, though I don’t remember reading if that’s just oven method or if it’s all methods. You may find that our buttermilk is a good mesophilic option for you, and possibly least worth a try if you’re getting more than one culture in the dairy/sourdough arenas (because we have discounted bundles if you’re buying on the website; a 2-culture bundle is something like $18, whereas a 3-culture is around $23; this works out to being roughly the same cost for the 3 as buying 2 without any bundle is). If you’re not looking to try (or have already, or both) a full-fat buttermilk, I think in terms of sour I would go with Bulgarian, Lebanese, or Icelandic skyr (for thermos) and/or skyr (for mesophil).
The wharf sourdough has origins in the Wharf portion of SFO specifically, which does have a slightly different profile from other sourdoughs you find in the area. It’s also slightly more tart than the regular SF starter. My assumption, having tasted both of them and having spent a lot of time in that city, is that they originated in different bakeries. The wharf tastes exactly like Boudin’s starter and resultant breads.
I've been following your instructions to activate my starter and I'm on Day 5. I have quite a bit of extra leftover starter from yesterday and today after dividing out the 50 grams I needed to feed each of those days. You mention I can use this extra starter in brownies or pancakes etc. Do you have any recipes that I can refer to for using up this extra starter? Also, can I store the extra starter in the fridge in the meantime, and if so, for how long? Thank you!
— Anne
How I do it is to simply add whatever starter I need to get rid of to whichever brownie recipe I’m using that day. If you don’t have a brownie recipe you like, here’s one.
For waffles and pancakes, I do it as such: say you have a 50g discard, which is 25g each flour and water. Remove 25g of water and flour from the recipe, then replace with that 50g of starter. I generally will not include the baking soda or powder, but you totally can.
Yes, you can fridge them, and for a long time. I have a starter that’s been hanging out in my fridge since January. Last time I checked it, it looked hopeful I’d renew it. Alas, it wasn’t its turn! It may be easier, though, to store it in the freezer. That way, you’ve got your bags or containers of discard, and you can thaw and feed before sharing with the people in your life! It also never hurts to have a couple extras in the freezer in case something goes horribly awry with yours, too.
With any of the rye starters, do you use rye flour to feed it? Does the Swedish one make a great Limpa bread?
— Sue
If you want it to stay a rye starter, yes feed it with rye. If you don’t have access to rye right now, you can save half of the packet in the freezer for when you do (this retains a “pure” culture for you), and then do the rest with whatever flour you have access to. We actually include enough starter in the packet for 2 activations, but generally prefer people use the entire packet so as to give them the best, most vigorous start! Yes it’s perfect for vörtlimpa!
I started a Starter 10 days ago, with 2 tsbp water, 3tbsp organic whole wheat flour. After 3 days of stirring at least twice a day it was showing bubbles. Once I started feeding it once a day, the bubbling activity diminished. 10 days later, the starter is healthy by the smell, but there is no bubbling activity. Is there any tips you may have to stimulate a Starter with this condition and age? Again it's day 10.
— Paul
They sometimes do that. Make sure you’re keeping it in a warm part of the house, but if we’re 10 days in, it’s time to bake with it! Save just a bit to start feeding again (feed it after you pour out whatever is getting baked with), and make sure to stir it well. A lot of the time, I find starters really do want more stirring/whisking than we want to give. I have a starter from before I started working at PP that gets angry if I don’t give it 10-15 minutes of action. I just sit in front of the TV for that.
I am a complete novice at this. I just did step (day) one and I'm clear on the next few days.
At some point when I'm ready to make bread, what do I add to the mixture to finish or is it the mixture that is the part I would bake. Thanks
— Bruce
When you’re getting into the zone of being ready to bake, you’re going to start feeding your starter larger amounts of food, though still with the 1:1:1 system. The difference is that you won’t be discarding, but rather will be feeding the whole. Once that’s done, you’ll add your recipe’s proscribed amount of starter at whatever stage it asks you to. Have you started looking for a recipe yet? We have several on our blog, but there are millions on the internet if they don’t suit your tastes. Either way, you’ll want to know how much starter you need for the recipe so you can build it to that + 50g to “start anew.”
Can I use youghurt machine to activate and make viili? I live in DC and the weather right now is still a bit cooler than the recommended 70-78F for reactivating and maaking viili.
— Thulile
You cannot, unless your yogurt maker can be set to these lower temps. Generally, the appliance is used for thermophilic yogurts rather than mesophilic (counter-top). But you probably can put it in your oven with the light on (check with a thermometer that it isn’t too hot, as some oven lights will cause it to exceed 90F. Even if it’s a little colder, though, it will still ferment (albeit much more slowly).
Do you have any sense of how much lactose is in the Skyr if it incubates for 12h? I can't drink milk without a lactase pill, but I can normally eat commercial yogurt with no problem. I assume Skyr is similar?
— Keith
My answer on this will be a little weird, Keith. We do not lab test our cultures, so I cannot give a definitive answer to this. But I can give you some general answers. Sources claim 3-10% lactose remaining in skyr specifically (depending on manufacturer), so I think with erring on the side of caution we should assume 10%. What kind of milk you use will influence this, as well. Naturally skimmed milk will have the same lactose content as whole, 2%, and 1%, but commercially skimmed milk (at least in the States; no idea about other nations) tends to have non-fat dry milk added to rectify some issues with color and texture, and that powdered milk will contain its own lactose. So if you’re buying it from the grocery store, you’ll want to stay away from skim since it will have 1<2 portions of lactose per serving instead of 1.
If it’s worth the experiment (and for me it would be bc I like to test weird stuff on myself, even when I suspect I will incur discomfort from doing so), you can try it and see how you feel. I would assume that if the curds you ate from the wonky activation batch didn’t bother you, a fully fermented yogurt won’t either (though of course I could be wrong). You can also use so-called “lactose-free” milk, which is not lactose-free but which does have lactase added to it so as to replicate the digestive process someone who isn’t lactose-intolerant would experience. You also, I’d assume, can add your own lactase to the milk. I haven’t tried this, though I have used Beano to replicate amylase derived from spit when brewing with unmalted grain, and with good effect (so it produced the same effect as traditional methods of chewing unmalted grain before brewing). Can’t say it’s transferable, but it probably is since you’re adding the lactase you need in order to process the dairy better.
What is a good keto sourdough recipe and which starter and flour would you suggest I buy to get going?
— Mary
I have zero experience with keto baking, so I can’t give you any help on the recipe front. I would google for that, since someone on a keto diet will have an easier time figuring out which ones are good (taste good) than carb lover like myself will. Buckwheat flour has the lowest carbs of all the flours we make starters from, so I’d go with that one. That said, it is a gluten-free flour, so it will not rise like wheat flours do. As for what flour you’d use with that, I personally would go with buckwheat, but you should be able to feed with whatever keto flour mix you prefer.
Do you have yogurt starters for Almond, Oat, or Soy Milk?
— Heidi
We do not, know. Thus far, we’ve only been successful at developing a yogurt for coconut cream. I haven’t tried it with other vegan milks, but I asked Sabrina about this, and she said you can use other vegan milks (although you still need to use coconut to activate it), but that you will need to “really manipulate the texture if using other alternative milks.” I’m assuming that means you will want to use less than you’d use volumetrically if you had gone with coconut, because the other milk alternatives are substantially thinner. She said it does not activate well without coconut.
Can I dry some of my buttermilk so that if I go on a two week vacation or it dies I can start it again? Also, will the sourdough starters not made with AP flour change their flavor quickly if I"m not using the same flour they were created with? I'd like a more sour sourdough but don't want to have to buy a new starter frequently to have it.
— Sean
You can definitely dry your buttermilk, yes. That’s my favorite way to store because takes up less space.
All you do is spread it thinly on parchment paper, wax paper, or a plastic tray/plate/bowl/whatever. I use plastic because it’s already in my house and reduces waste (parchment paper is astonishingly environmentally unfriendly, so I limit what I use it for), and because I’ve found that the cultures lift up off of it better while drying. As the culture dries, you’ll see some darkening of it, and you’ll see that it starts to lift off of whatever it’s been spread onto. I’ve never seen ALL of a culture lift off, but it’s usually pretty close. Then I bag and store in the freezer. Most of the time, I just do somewhere in the quarter cup range, because I know it’ll give me a couple of culture’s worth in most cases (generally a litre of the relevant dairy product). You can also do this with sourdough starters. As a head’s up, I generally dry my cultures in the fridge, because it reduces the possibility of attracting gnats and takes less than half the time.
I also used to freeze fresh, active, wet cultures in breast milk bags. They’re literally designed for this kind of stuff so they work better at deterring freezer burn than any other freezer bag I’ve tried, and they also are designed to freeze flat. Up and Up brand (Target), in my experience, makes the best bags (lowest rate of failure of the 8 or 9 brands I tested) at around the lowest cost (I think Walmart’s might be cheaper, but they are definitely not as good). I will still do it this way if someone I know needs a culture and I don’t trust them to manage dry activation (sorry, friends this has happened to, that you now know why I’ve sent them wet). These bags are also awesome for pesto and other sauces, though generally I use a reusable container for those. The only reason I’m phasing out wet frozen cultures is because I have a single refrigerator freezer and I had a gallon (seriously) of various wet cultures that were stopping me from freezing regular foods.
Sourdoughs will change flavor to some degree no matter what, because your environment will be different from anywhere they’ve lived before and impart some of those microbes. In terms of having to buy new starters, you should never have to do that. I’d keep a couple of samples of the starter in its current form so you have a “pure” culture, but otherwise it can easily adapt to any grain you’d like it to. Rye, in my experience, tends to produce the most sour starters.
I am also looking for organic. Are your cultures organic?
— Several of you
Our preference is to keep everything we can organic/GMO-free, because it makes no sense to have to carry second copies of the same items so that different people can have different things that are basically still the same. People who don’t care about organic products will happily buy them as long as they’re not being charged extra to do so, and people who want organic/GMO will not be flexible in reverse. So yep, in almost every instance (including some kombuchas), our stuff is organic and non-GMO!
